here's a couple of piccies taken on jobs done recently. Boith images concern manufacturing...err...quirks...and both are products of a very large manufacturer whose name begins with M.
The first is a KS kerb unit - how the bloody hell did this get through quality controil - or do they not have such a thing?
Is that the worst ever example of shoddy quality control, or do you know of summat worse?
Second up is more of a conundrum. These pavers, with a name that sounds like Begula Frivesett, were laid during August, and every so often, there'd be a 240mm long paver that just never seemed to dry out. When we looked more closely, we noticed that it was always the 240mm blocks that were all brown, with no other colour mixed in - no bits of red or charcoal or green or anthything: just solid brown concrete.
Ken (KGC Paving) said he'd noticed this phenomenon several times over recent months, which got us wondering. Is this just a problem with blocks from the plant up in the Pennine Hills near Manchester (The one with a name like a Male Sheep's rear end) or is it a nationwide phenomenon? Has anyone else seen this effect?
We get the odd crap block with lumps in now and then but never seen one that bad before!
As for the wet blocks we had a small number of em in a Bretts Alpha job we did recently and we always have a few Formpave blocks like it when we lay them. Its never a specific colour mind.
I've had a number of my customers asking me why they don't seem to dry out. Can you find out Tony so as I can give em an answer in future please? James
I'm guessing they told you at Glee was that the "wet" pavers had a poor cement to aggregate ratio, allowing larger capillaries in the paver, allowing more water to get in, and stay in the paver. I'm guessing these pavers have more than the acceptable 5% water absorption content!
Probably the same chap who wasn't watching the mix recipe also wasn't doing a very good job monitoring the pigments either, and that is why the offending pavers are the same color.
I asked the Head of new products, the Head of PR, the person in charge of developing the Marshalls' brochure and marketing, and the bloke responsible for the Marshalls' Register of Approved Contractors, and none of them would give me a straight answer, nor would they agree to make an appearance here and comment on the images. In fact, I was accused of being unfair and that I really ought to be running an "Is this the best KS kerb you've ever seen?" feature in the interest of balance!
So: I started pushing them a bit harder, possibly a bit too hard, as a couple of them just upped sticks and walked away from me, but, eventually, the Head of New Products (I'll not embarrass him by giving his name) suggested that the problem with the blocks was a one-off and probably due to the concrete mix being too dry when put into the press.
I am not a concrete technologist, and I have to bow to superior knowledge, but I'm not convinced that this is the real cause of the phenomenon with the pavers in the second image. As I repeatedly stated to Marshalls, the phenomenon has been witnessed on a number of jobs over a period of 4-5 months. Further, it only affects the 240mm long blocks that are composed of a brown concrete.
Now, I can accept that a batch or two of iffy concrete may make it through the system on an off day, but for this problem to recur for a period of months, suggests it's more than one batch that has slipped through.
If there was some serious performance problem with the blocks, I might be able to understand the lack of effort to provide definitive answers from Marshalls, but neither myself, not the principal contractor involved, are concerned with the block performance - they seem to be as hard and well-formed as any of the others - it's just that they remain damp for an extended period when all the other blocks have dried, and this is generating uncertainty for the clients who, in some cases, suspect they've been supplied with dodgy product.
All we wanted was a simple, straightforward answer, so that the contractors involved can go back to their clients and say, "See: Marshalls themselves say there's nowt wrong; they're just a batch or two of 'different' blocks and they are not shonky in any way".
Is that too much to ask from Britain's largest paving manufacturer? Apparently, it is!
Tony- trust me, its an absorption issue. It's not a big deal in the UK, but in the U.S. it would be because of our freeze thaw cycles--- that little bit of H2O gets inside that paver, and freezes--- it can wreak havoc on it.
That in mind, as for your experience, I'll come to the Marshall's folks aid here!!! Keep in mind this is from a YANK persepctive:
1. You were asking marketing and installation people. They probably don't know the reason for the issue, or were not aware of such a phenomenon. You need to talk to one of the plant managers, or at least someone in manufacturing, and about the only way you'll get one of them at a trade show booth is if they are one of the owners of the company!
2. It may seem like a relatively small concern to a contractor, a nagging issue that you just want a straight answer to, but all these marketing guys are thinking . . . . "If I say one little thing, suddenly Marshall's will be paying contractors to pull up thousands of square feet of pavers all over the United Kingdom!
"RUN AWAY!!!!!!!!! RUN AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!". :0
3. The last thing marketing people want at a trade show booth is someone asking uncomfortable questions, scaring other potential clients away! LOL
I'm sure they just wanted to get you out of there ASAP.
I would tell the homeowners that the pavers should be good for at least 50 snowstorms, and to not worry about it.
Oh, I know that I was making them uncomfortable, but I have a very low tolerance of bullshit and I take exception to being regarded as a fool, which is what was happening during the 'discussion'.
Anyway, your point about the freeze-thaw cycle is a very good one, and one I hadn't considered for us in these mild and soggy islands, but you're right: in a climate such as yours, these blocks wouldn't be acceptable.
As for 50 snowstorms: we haven't had snow in this part of north-western Eng-er-land since 1996. We get a 'dusting' once or twice each winter, but it never lasts more than a few hours. 50 snowstorms would be around 400 years! :p
TonyMcC wrote:Oh, I know that I was making them uncomfortable, but I have a very low tolerance of bullshit and I take exception to being regarded as a fool, which is what was happening during the 'discussion'.
Anyway, your point about the freeze-thaw cycle is a very good one, and one I hadn't considered for us in these mild and soggy islands, but you're right: in a climate such as yours, these blocks wouldn't be acceptable.
As for 50 snowstorms: we haven't had snow in this part of north-western Eng-er-land since 1996. We get a 'dusting' once or twice each winter, but it never lasts more than a few hours. 50 snowstorms would be around 400 years! :p
Similar problem to the Tegula. Using Lakeland Edenstone paviors - a rumbled 2 size block. On a recent job a lot of the smaller size blocks were darker than the rest due to holding moisture. I havent been back to the job or been called back so the client must be happy.
I have noticed in the past few weeks that Marshalls Driveline 50 paviors are not of the usual quality. After compaction there are a lot of broken blocks and also a lot of blocks with large holes in them - about 35-40mm wide, 10-20mm deep. The concrete just crumbles. And we all know what a pain in the ass it is having to break out and replace individual paviors.
If you think you're getting shoddy blocks, call out the reps and get them to defend their products. I know the usual craic is that you are obliged to return iffy blocks to your supplier, which is typically your BM, but when blocks have been laid, and it's a recurring problem, I'd insist on the manufacturer sending out a rep to see the problem in situ, and face the clients, if necessary.
There's a manufacturer selling blocks in Britain (and for once, it's NOT Marshalls) with a clause in their T&Cs clearly stating that, once blocks are laid, the company deems them to have been passed as 'fit for use' and will not entertain any complaints. In many cases, you don't know the blocks are shite until the plate compactors has crumbled them or two weeks of rain has washed off all the crap from the surface. If I was still contracting and some poncey rep tried to get me to fall for that, they'd be bundled back into their bloody SRI with a maul shaft protruding from their rear end, and left in no doubt that we would never be buying their blocks again! :laugh:
It's hard enough being a contractor having to endure the silly whims and wild fantasies of the clients, but you'd like to think that at least the manufacturers were on our side - dream on!!
James
