I'd like to get my garden re-paved, and was wondering what might be a reasonable price to pay for a 50 square metre garden in West London. I've had a quote of £85 per square metre, but £4,000 sounds pretty high.
The job would be to remove the existing stones and replace them with riven flags of a reasonable quality (i.e. not bargain basement but nothing too extravagant). I know that this is a "how long is a piece of string" type question, but could someone give an idea of likely labour cost and price ranges for the flags?
Reasonable price to pave a 50m2 garden?
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84-1089053830
There's folk up t'north wetting themselves laughing at those prices! 85 quid per square metre for riven flags is around 25-30 quid more than we'd pay, and we can get a genuine riven stone flag (albeit imported) supplied and laid for about the same price as a mid-range concrete copy.
However, in London Village, prices bear no relation to real life and there is a great deal of 'think-of-a-number-and-double-it' applied to prices down there due to the sheer level of demand for quality tradesmen and the fact that even nipping up to Travis Bloody Perkins for a bag of cement is a half-day of a job, given the traffic problems.
You must get at least 3 more prices, and check the work that is being offered. There's a lot of advice given on the Using a Contractor page of the main site - I know it's good advice because several of the largest manufacturers have ripped it off and reproduced it in their own brochures over the last few years!
Perhaps some of the Contractors from Lower Britain would like to comment on the price you've been quoted so far. In all honesty, it's nothing exceptional for that part of the world - I know several contractors charging flat rates of 100 quid per metre, and more, so 85 quid might be the best price you'll get.
The only alternative is to sell up and by yourself a proper house up here in the civilised part of the country.
However, in London Village, prices bear no relation to real life and there is a great deal of 'think-of-a-number-and-double-it' applied to prices down there due to the sheer level of demand for quality tradesmen and the fact that even nipping up to Travis Bloody Perkins for a bag of cement is a half-day of a job, given the traffic problems.
You must get at least 3 more prices, and check the work that is being offered. There's a lot of advice given on the Using a Contractor page of the main site - I know it's good advice because several of the largest manufacturers have ripped it off and reproduced it in their own brochures over the last few years!
Perhaps some of the Contractors from Lower Britain would like to comment on the price you've been quoted so far. In all honesty, it's nothing exceptional for that part of the world - I know several contractors charging flat rates of 100 quid per metre, and more, so 85 quid might be the best price you'll get.
The only alternative is to sell up and by yourself a proper house up here in the civilised part of the country.
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itm
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- Location: Richmond
Nothing unexpected in your reply!
The way I figured it, I was thinking that the stones would cost £1,500 - £2,000 and the labour about £600 (4 man days?). That's about £2,600 rather than the £4k that I've been quoted. Is it typical to quote per square metre? It seems like a convenient way of masking the real costs.
The way I figured it, I was thinking that the stones would cost £1,500 - £2,000 and the labour about £600 (4 man days?). That's about £2,600 rather than the £4k that I've been quoted. Is it typical to quote per square metre? It seems like a convenient way of masking the real costs.
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84-1089053830
85 square metres (and it is standard practice to quote prices based on area) of flags should cost around 1700 quid for imported sandstone or 2200 quid for quality concrete copies.
I think you're being a little over-optimistic regarding the labour. 4 man days to lay 85m² is good going - it'd be possible if all the prep was done in advance, but if I was estimating this job, I'd allow 6 man days to lay and point the flags. We base that on 30m² per gang per day, even though a good team will easily cover 50-60m² if the job is set up right.
Also, 150 quid per man day is probably a little light for London. Labourers are commanding 100 quid per day minimum, and for that you only get a 'donkey'. A top tradesman will expect a minimum of 250 quid per day.
And then there's the profit - every business has to make a profit to cover overheads and training and insurances and beer, etc. There's no point in running a business unless it providing more than a basic wage!
I think you're being a little over-optimistic regarding the labour. 4 man days to lay 85m² is good going - it'd be possible if all the prep was done in advance, but if I was estimating this job, I'd allow 6 man days to lay and point the flags. We base that on 30m² per gang per day, even though a good team will easily cover 50-60m² if the job is set up right.
Also, 150 quid per man day is probably a little light for London. Labourers are commanding 100 quid per day minimum, and for that you only get a 'donkey'. A top tradesman will expect a minimum of 250 quid per day.
And then there's the profit - every business has to make a profit to cover overheads and training and insurances and beer, etc. There's no point in running a business unless it providing more than a basic wage!
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itm
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- Location: Richmond
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ABILITY
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Don't forget the sub base, laying materials, skip or muck away for old flags and spoil etc etc.
Not always sraight forward slabs cost + labour.
As Tony says, add in transport, diesel, tools and kit. insurance for business and vehicles etc.
People often seem to forget the real costs involved in doing a proper job and running even a small business.
Not always sraight forward slabs cost + labour.
As Tony says, add in transport, diesel, tools and kit. insurance for business and vehicles etc.
People often seem to forget the real costs involved in doing a proper job and running even a small business.
Ability.
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danensis
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84-1089053830
25% Labour? You're just being profligate, Jon! :;):
Getting back to itm's dilemma - you cannot, ever, apply pro rata calculations to jobs like this. Just because, say, a 100m² driveway costs 6 grand, that does not mean a 50m² driveway must therefore cost 3 grand. It just isn't that simple.
You have 'fixed costs', such as establishing the site, and you have 'variable costs', such as labour and materials. So, although a smaller job uses fewer materials and less labour, it still involves a considerable amount of paperwork and management.
So, what was 85m² is now 50m², and although this is a reduction to around 60% of the original project, the costs might now be 75-80% of the original estimate because of this issue with costings.
All this is probably not doing much good for your blood pressure, but that's the way it is, and every decent contractor in the land has to work it the same, or they end up losing money.
The only good news is that, if you double the size of a project, that should not normally double the price - economies of scale come into play, and so, if we consider once again our 100m² driveway for the bargain price of 6 grand, a 200m² driveway to the same spec might actually only cost, say 10 grand - bargain!
Getting back to itm's dilemma - you cannot, ever, apply pro rata calculations to jobs like this. Just because, say, a 100m² driveway costs 6 grand, that does not mean a 50m² driveway must therefore cost 3 grand. It just isn't that simple.
You have 'fixed costs', such as establishing the site, and you have 'variable costs', such as labour and materials. So, although a smaller job uses fewer materials and less labour, it still involves a considerable amount of paperwork and management.
So, what was 85m² is now 50m², and although this is a reduction to around 60% of the original project, the costs might now be 75-80% of the original estimate because of this issue with costings.
All this is probably not doing much good for your blood pressure, but that's the way it is, and every decent contractor in the land has to work it the same, or they end up losing money.
The only good news is that, if you double the size of a project, that should not normally double the price - economies of scale come into play, and so, if we consider once again our 100m² driveway for the bargain price of 6 grand, a 200m² driveway to the same spec might actually only cost, say 10 grand - bargain!
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itm
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- Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2004 10:22 pm
- Location: Richmond
So to try to simplify things - does anyone have enough local knowledge of the London market to determine what a reasonable price should be for this sort of job. The garden is already paved (not particularly tidily) and flat - I just want it re-paved with not-too expensive stones.
PS - just to clear things up, this was never an 85 sq.m project (see title of post). I think that number was introduced somewhere along the way!
PS - just to clear things up, this was never an 85 sq.m project (see title of post). I think that number was introduced somewhere along the way!
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alan ditchfield
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85 was the number you quoted per £ ,sq. mtr not the meterage, and this sounds reasonable in your part of the country although as Tony says it is a lot more than you would pay in the NW. just make sure you are getting a quality job for your money as there is a lot of horse riding, gun totint tossers out there. Alan D.
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IanO
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- Location: Epsom Downs, Surrey
itm
I am not sure the following will help, but lets try. I live in Epsom Downs where there are a large number of gentleman on horses, as per the previous post!
I had a quote of £45 / m for block paving for about 60m2 with quite a bit of groundwork to do. I know this is not the same material but might give an indication. Incidentally, the contractor was via a colleague and he has been in business for a long time - no horses present! He invited me to look at any number of previous jobs.
Foolishly, I have been reading this web site and formed a false confidence in myself, so I now have tools to undertake the job myself, at about £15 /m. Plus not-declared-to-wife profit for beer, etc. (Is that how it works?). I must speak to my boss about my £250 a day + 50% profit - I hope you tax payers don't mind this bung for a public employee!
When I have bodged it, tried to fix it, then called in the professionals, I'll update you on the damage.
By the way, the contractor I mentioned is based around Chessington.
Regards
Ian Oldfield
Epsom Downs
PS. For Tony's benefit - I did live in Nelson - if you know it, you'll know why I live in the uncivilised south!
I am not sure the following will help, but lets try. I live in Epsom Downs where there are a large number of gentleman on horses, as per the previous post!
I had a quote of £45 / m for block paving for about 60m2 with quite a bit of groundwork to do. I know this is not the same material but might give an indication. Incidentally, the contractor was via a colleague and he has been in business for a long time - no horses present! He invited me to look at any number of previous jobs.
Foolishly, I have been reading this web site and formed a false confidence in myself, so I now have tools to undertake the job myself, at about £15 /m. Plus not-declared-to-wife profit for beer, etc. (Is that how it works?). I must speak to my boss about my £250 a day + 50% profit - I hope you tax payers don't mind this bung for a public employee!
When I have bodged it, tried to fix it, then called in the professionals, I'll update you on the damage.
By the way, the contractor I mentioned is based around Chessington.
Regards
Ian Oldfield
Epsom Downs
PS. For Tony's benefit - I did live in Nelson - if you know it, you'll know why I live in the uncivilised south!
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