First post, first attempt at paving. Greetings, everyone.
I came across this informative site whilst attempting to educate myself on the black arts of creating an aesthetically satisfactory paving job that'll be both functional and durable. Ultimately I don't want to make a gash job of it and I really only want to have to do it once.
Now, I like to believe that I can do anything I put my mind to really very well indeed. Innovate the worlds greatest innovations, reinvent the wheel, juggle 8 balls in one hand whilst operating a ventriloquist dummy doing Shakespear (drinking a glass of water at the same time,) you know. Occasionally when I fall over or bang my head, it occurs to me that I know sod all about most things; paving was amongst them unfortunately, and reading this site has reinforced just how little I actually knew.
On the upside, I found the site and it's been an education. On the downside, although I can read and even absorb small amounts of information, it turns out that I'm probably a bit of a monkey and I'm still not entirely sure about the correct way to do it. Hopefully you guys will be arm me with a good approach so that I'll only be up against my lack of skills and not my ignorance as well.
So now I'm happy we've established that I'm 'challenged,' onto the job.
This area -
was covered in these
'blue bricks', straight onto soil. It's now covered in about 5 inches of uncompacted MoT1 and I'm in the process of cleaning the bricks up and sorting out sizes. The bricks in the photo are all the same size (nominally) in plan but I think that some of the ones I haven't cleaned yet are different, which may or may not pose an issue; I won't know if I've got enough identical ones until I've sorted the rest of them out and counted them up.
Considering how long those bricks had probably been down there the integrity of the surface wasn't all that bad, the vast majority of the bricks hadn't moved a great deal and the moss growing between them had a certain charm. However, the rest of the house is having some long needed renovation (due to my redundancy and subsequent free time) and as part of the plan is for french doors and some hard surfacing at the back of the property (directly adjacent to the depicted area,) now seemed like a good time to dig up those blue bricks and spruce it up a bit.
Here's a CAD 'sketch' I did of the area.
It's not strictly correct as the top left hand corner is truncated where the gate comes across at an angle.
I've drawn the bricks 252.5 x 127.5 x 50 and drawn the mortar gap 15mm. The courses around the drain and IC look messy on the drawing (it's just how they ended up) and it doesn't represent how I envisage the finished job. I think it presents the dimensions and serves its purpose though.
Initially I was thinking about block paving around the side and the back of the house and dug out the whole area with this in mind. I have since changed my mind for a number of reasons. I actually really like those blue bricks and they continue from my garden through the alleyway to the front. The area is where my outside tap is and where mountain bikes and dogs are hosed down; it gets wet, often. The sun doesn't get to that area and I think block paving will go green.
After some thought and lots of nebbing over peoples' walls to look at their block paving, I don't really like it that much afterall and I certainly don't think it will look right for the area.
My intention is to re-lay these blue bricks properly (as well as I can with my limited skills anyway) at the side of the house and, if there are enough (which I sadly doubt) use them as an edging course around some natural stone or stone setts on the area adjacent to the blue brick in an attempt to provide some continuity (cohesion?) to the overall area(s.) I think I want to keep it simple; simple lines with natural materials - I have a feeling that anything too 'perfect' here may look out of place.
Hopefully I haven't waffled too much and you can see what I'm trying to achieve here so far. Any advice or suggestions are very much appreciated.
I understand I need to get a heavy whacker and do several passes to compact this MoT down well and get nice levels before I do anything more to this surface. That said, to spare you any more of my waffling I'll just try to list some things I'm unclear about now:
1. Should I be putting another layer of something on top of the MoT before I lay this surface?
2. I was going to lay onto a 40/50mm bed of 1:3 mortar made with sharp sand and a bit of frostproofing additive. Am I right in thinking that this too much mortar and that it would be be better to use 1:¼:3 with lime anyway?
3. Should I first lay a course around the drain at the right level and lay around the inspection chamber before I start laying the rest?
4. The Drain is the lowest part in this area and I can't do anything about the level of the edge, the alleyway or the drain. I've racked my brains and can't think of any way to eliminate this backfall towards the house. I can only assume that I have to try to 'use' it and lay the surface so it all falls towards the drain like this:
I'm stumped, even if this is how I should try to do it I've no clear idea of how best to set it out and start it. It's making my head hurt and I really want to get on with it.
5. Any suggestions as to what I ought to do here:
I intend to remove the mortar and surfacing from around the IC and make a neat course (probably a thin one by the look of it) around it, and I was going to strike a line from the corner of the house to the corner of the gate post and make a neat course across (to match the course around the IC) for the sake of making a neat edge. Part of me wonders whether it would look better, bearing in mind the imperfect surface I'll be laying, to match into the existing courses as best I can, at this edge?
For anyone still awake, I'll break off there before it becomes any more of an epic. Thank you for looking, any input on part or all of this is welcome and appreciated.
Yes mate I couldn't agree more, plastic windows and doors aren't my favourites and that door, even though you can't see the style of it I can tell you wouldn't even get near the ranks of the best of the worst.
Sadly, the cost of plastic vs good quality timber made it prohibitively expensive years ago when I was forced to replace rotten timber. That door was already there but it will be removed and blocked in when the french door is done around the back. At the moment I'm thinking it'll have to be plastic as well though, simply down to the cost and the fact that I have no money coming in, and still an awful lot of work to do and pay for on the property, both inside and out.
Things are taking shape (allbeit very slowly) though and in a few years when I 've absorbed the cost of the all the work in progress and saved some more pennies I'd love to fetch all that render off, restore the brickwork, stone cills & lintels (that's what I'm doing out front) and replace all the windows and doors with lovely wood ones. One of the front windows is a charming gothic arch and would look infinitely better with wooden sash.
Those clays were probably laid in just the same way as modern block paving: on sand with sand joints. Mortar was a valuable commodity and on properties of a certain age, the thought of wasting good mortar as a bed for paving would have sent the agent into apoplexy. This is sort-of confirmed by the fact that you said the pavers had been laid directly onto soil: it probably was sand that, over the years has been mixed by worms and other invertebrates, and supplemented with detritus washed in from the surface.
So: I'd definitely re-lay them in the same manner. I'd be very, very reluctant to mortar be-and-joint them, not least because of the phenomenal amount of work it involves.
I'd lay a soldier course to all edges, which then resolves the detailing around the drain and the IC, and then lay the body as transverse stretcher as you have shown....
...personally, I'd lay all of the edge courses on mortar/concrete because that's the way I like to work (it tends to hold them in place when you screed off for the body blocks) but in reality. it's only those around the gully and the IC that need to be on a cementitious bed to ensure that they can't move.
You have the right idea about the drainage - everything goes towards the gully, regardless of the fact that it is sending water back to the house: it's the only realistic scenario.
I'd be really interested to see how you get on with this project....
Suggers, sorry missed the first reference but got the second (more obvious) one - bit slow on the uptake there. Good to see another individual gifted (or disturbed) enough to tune into the radar station .
Tony, thanks for your input. The design you've shown is a great help and will look a lot better than my unimaginative effort, if I can pull it off.
I do have a couple of worries about laying them like block paving. The area around the drain often gets wet and I worry that either the sand joints will get washed out or that water will pass through the joints and make the bedding flow, and sinking the pavers. My other concern is the likelihood of the pavers cracking/breaking if I have to whacker them down.
I've cleaned and sorted all the whole pavers now and I have enough 252.5x127.5 's to make the soldier course. The majority of the other pavers are 227.5x112.5 and I have enough to do about half the area I need, which I sort of suspected would be the case.
So, I'm in the process of trying to obtain some more pavers from salvage and I can definitely get some if not all. Can anyone suggest a good source for these around the East Midlands in the event that I can't get enough? Failing that, I'd be interested in suggestions of what to use for the body of the paving. I'd have thought most natural stone materials would look decent in contrast to these blue pavers, perhaps something light in colour like sandstone; I don't know, suggestions are welcome.
On a totally different note, a couple of my mates came around the other day and I made the mistake of sharing my project with them. They really took the p155 out of me and thought it was hilarious that I'd posted on a website asking for help/advice. I don't get it personally and it strikes me that the intelligent thing to do is find out how to do something properly from people who know how to do it, rather than just do what you think is right in total ignorance. I took the hump anyway and it makes me more determined to make a decent job of it.
I'd be really interested to see how you get on with this project....
Not done but not forgotten either. I've made a start and for better or worse here's what it looks like so far. The irony is that I'm doing this for someone elses benefit now as I've bought another house and I'm sprucing this one up to sell it.
I no longer have the webspace I used to have and the images don't seem to show up with the links I posted. Hopefully you can see them via the links. I'm probably being a bit of a spanner but I'm not entirely sure why it doesn't work via the image button here. If you can fix it so the images show here then please do so or tell me how to do it and I'll sort it so people can see.
A few things I'm not happy about but I'm not digging it up to change it now; you live and learn!
I laid the corners wrong way round because I failed to refer back to Tony's drawing before I looked back here.
The edges I laid up to an existing edge (which I'd laid to a string) but the blocks are not even in size so the edge I'll be laying the edge up to is a bit wonky - hopefully, because of the uneven nature of these blocks it won't look too bad once I'm finished. If I do it again I think I'd lay the 'finish' edge to a string.
Wet mix - streuth! There's a black art to mixing cement just right. Damn I've made life difficult for myself mixing cement too wet. By the fourth mix I'd learn't that I didn't need to use very much water.
I used my angle grinder with a diamond blade to cut the blocks. I could have spent a bit more time and perhaps wasted a few blocks being neater.
I've had a devil of a job with the levels here and trying to get up to the level in the alley way.
Finally, I'd never considered it before so this isn't a case of me altering my opinion in any way, but I don't care what anyone says, this is bloody hard work and it is a skilled job. I take my hat off to anyone who does this professionally.
I'll let you see what it looks like when I'm done. Thanks for being here and thanks for the input.
Seems a bit harsh to me, thanks for the encouragement . I've never done anything like this before and we all have to start somewhere. Unfortunately I haven't got any images of how it was before but whatever I did I couldn't have made it worse!
As I said, for better or worse. I suppose I'm posting back for Tony's benefit more than anything else because he was interested to see how I got on. I've found it difficult, I'm not hugely satisfied and there are things I'd do differently if I tried it again - try being the operative word. Better to try and fail than not to try at all.
Nevertheless I thank you for your opinion and, valid though it is, it's more useful for a rank amateur (that would be me) to be more constructive with your input than to mock.
I'm not upset over your apparent opinion but I do find it somewhat discouraging/disheartening. Regardless, I'll post back when I've finished so that Tony can have a look and so you can flame the crap job I've made of it.
If you think i'm being harsh then wait till the guv'nor sees them. Most people on here would sell their grannies for a chance of using those bricks/blocks. They are the cream of our industry, along with natural stone etc: You have the materials to do a showcase job, that's why the boss and the rest of us were interested to see the outcome. the use of mortar to infill around the manhole and smudge the bricks is a no no. Plenty of first timers come on here, read up, ask for constructive advise and then follow that advise. Some of them do a great job. I know it's hard to take criticism but it could be the opposite and you could of been getting a pat on the back.
are you going to infill the area trout?
I imagine laying blue staffs would be very difficult for a first timers,especially as old materials tend not to be accurately sized or square
the good thing is you can use acid to clean them without any damage to the bricks
cheers LLL
come on every one what was your first attempt like when you first started....hmmm well did you start off perfect !!!!!!
I have seen bricklayers do work 10 times worse than that and not on a Monday morning either, i think trout needs a bit of slack on the rope don't you think as at least he knows he made a mistake and does not need all us super duper highly skilled trade people pulling the rope hanging him as high as we can when he kindly returned to post about his work
for a first timer its not that bad, its more than likely unfortunate that the bricks were wet and the bedding was also too wet as he posted hence the mortar stain on the surface which can be put right with brick acid purchased from any builders merchants
so long as you learn by your mistakes trout, hey and i bet you don't make that mistake again
now just hang there a minute longer whilst I go and find a knife to cut Seans rope
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. I've never done anything like this before and we all have to start somewhere. Unfortunately I haven't got any images of how it was before but whatever I did I couldn't have made it worse!
