Sub base - Poor type 1?

[tuulip]

Hi guys,

I studied this site before we started out patio and drive but have now hit a glich.

You seem to know your onions so I want to know if I am being stupid of fed BS.

I ordered 20T of type 1, crushed concrete.
I told them is was for a drive and patio.

What I got looks exactly the same as the digger guy took up the day before.
Pretty much 60% dirt and 30% stones. I know loose type 1 consists of fines and lumps but this is fines and fines.

The supplier came round and just told use we were amateurs.

A friend of mines runs the local builders yard and says, "it's poor, tough luck you get poor loads, you gotta live with it, that's why I don't supply it, too random. It's ok for the patio but you cars will sink in a year or two! "

Is there a definition of type 1, I reckon I've got type 2, I've looked but it makes no sense.
Also who can I get on side? Trading standards and building control useless.

This Frac always happens to me so any advice appreciated.

Thanks x

[lutonlagerlout]

i believe type 1 is 35mm down to fines
most pros on here will only use crushed concrete if it is just that.
only concrete that has been crushed.
lovedays in hemel do some lovely crushed concrete but i have had poor loads from bradsaws,lot of rubbish in it

so the bottom line is,you went for a cheaper option and its backfired
you really need to see crushed concrete before you buy it

we only use MOT type 1 crushed limestone now,have you got a picture you can upload tuulip?
can you name the firm that supplied it?
at least others wont make the same mistake
cheers LLL

[msh paving]

Cushed concrete type 1 will have a cirtificate to prove it from a lab such as st albans testing services,other wise its just crushed concrete
type 2 is a different material, usually a sandstone or simillar,used for footpath construction and similar jobs
if it was sold as type 1 you have a come back, but sold a crushed concrete thats what you got
As for it lasting 2 years or so, thats a bit of over kill as long it is laid in layers and compacted and any wood and junk took out
trading standards will only look into it if sold as type 1 on ticket,nothing to do with building control
MSH

[mickg]

for 10 ton or 20 ton loads I only use MOT type 1 out of the quarry for the very same reason your having problems, they all promise the earth but when it arrives they will give you anything

a few years ago we had 2000 ton of crushed stuff as a base for a car park, the first 20 ton loads you get its good stuff then they start to give you all the shite with timber soil and metal mixed in it and the worse bit is all the dust what just turns to slurry, does not compact and is no good to man nor beast

[Dave_L]

What did you order and what was on the delivery ticket?

[tuulip]

Thanks for the replies,

Dave L - I ordered type 1, crushed concrete and I told them it was for a drive and patio, they said that was fine.

The ticket is certified with an EAN number as Type 1.

Mick G - I thinK you are right, I got the shite with timber soil and metal mixed in it and yes after rain this morning the dust is just slurry!

lutonlagerlout - thanks for the info. I wasn't looking for the cheaper option. I thought I was getting the right stuff, I even double checked it with the guy. The company was JR Mould in Reading. This is my first dealings with them so don't know if this is a one off. Never had a problem with other suppliers.

msh - thanks for the reassurance. I think tho it is just too dirty, or maybe I am just an idiot. I have seen pictures on this forum tho of laid crushed concrete and it looks just like that. Concrete that has been crushed!

Will go get the camera for a piccy

Tuula

[mo-uk]

legally your options are

1) accept it and use it

2) refuse to use it and take them to court to get your money back

Possibly report to trading standards as they will be committing criminal offences if they are misleading consumers.

obviously it doesnt help if you have 20tons of concrete lying around and nothing to do with it

you could write to the merchants and if they refuse to take it back - ** and you can prove its not type 1 as stated** you might be able to pay to have it removed and reclaim that cost if you were to win in court - you would have to give them opprunity to respond though and take action - i.e maybe a letter or two.

[Dave_L]

Uplifting said material will be very costly for whoever is liable............

You might be best to learn from this and use it........otherwise you could have 20t of material in a heap for a long while!

A pic would be handy!

[GB_Groundworks]

i never buy crusher run for anything other than than sub sub base or fill to build levels, and then generally only use our own clean stuff for that.

i've never seen decent stuff always full of bricks, which are clay so will in time turn back to mush, wood, metal, asbetos cement big 6 sheets etc, cabling, rubbish, etc even the quarries that take clean concrete for free pad out the loads with crap.

always use virgin aggregate direct from quarries, no middle men.

type 2 just includes sand and gravel in its specification

Type 1

A specification for granular materials used as sub-base, as defined by the Specification for Highway Works, clause 803. Type 1 materials include crushed rock, crushed slag, crushed concrete and well-burnt, non-plastic shale - but sand and gravels are excluded.

Type 2

A specification for granular material used as sub-base, as defined by the Specification for Highway Works clause 804. Type 2 materials include crushed rock, crushed slag, crushed concrete, well-burnt non-plastic shale, and natural sand and gravels.

[lutonlagerlout]

i've never seen decent stuff always full of bricks, which are clay so will in time turn back to mush

really giles?
can you reference a scientific paper on that?
once an aggregate is fired,be it clay ,chalk ,whatever all the CO2 is gone out of it and it becomes a different material
anyway i am half cut now so will write more in the morning
nite nite
LLL :;):

[GB_Groundworks]

i read it in an article on horse arena construction albeit it was more focused on the drainage bed, single sized aggregate versus hard core and one of the main points was the brick braking down and clay sludge blocking the perforations in the pipe,

having worked with both, the real stuff is so much better than the crusher run, easier to grade and consolidate.

tony join the club i crawled in at half 9 this morning, just drinking some nice munich larger. augustiner brau for any one who likes a really good beer

edit:

Table 2. Compressive strength of bricks in original form and rock (after Bolouri 2004)
Material
Unconfined Compressive
Strength (UCS), kg/cm2 Specific gravity (gr/cm3)
Brick (in original form) 30 - 70 1.9-2.0
Basalt 1750-4200 2.8-2.9
Granite 700-2800 2.65-2.75
Limestone 350-1750 2.65-2.75
Sandstone 280-1400 2.3-2.4


This test is designed for all materials used as road construction material, including recycled concrete and
brick. However for many types of material for which chemical attack and abrasion are anticipated, the results may be
misleading. The crushed brick was subjected to 5 cycles of immersion of samples in sodium sulphate solution
followed by drying in oven. Figure 1 shows a piece of brick after 5 cycle immersion in sodium sulphate solution
followed by drying. The cracks appeared in the sample indicate the low resistance of brick to weathering action.


Degradation of aggregates in the Los Angeles test
The Los Angeles test is designed to determine the ability of coarse aggregates smaller than 37.5 mm (1½ in.) to
resist abrasion, using the Los Angeles Testing Machine in accordance with ASTM C131 (or AASHTO T96). Abrasion
resistance is essential when the aggregates to be used in concrete or base and sub-base of pavement where subject to
abrasion. In this test, a specified quantity of aggregates is placed in a steel drum containing steel balls, the drum is
rotated, and the percentage of material worn away is measured. Specifications often set an upper limit on this weight
loss. Table 7 gives the test results for crushed brick and concrete/cement mortar.
Table 7. Abrasive charge of materials in Los Angeles test
Aggregate type Abrasion (%)
Crushed brick 49.6
Crushed concrete/cement mortar 46.5
The test results reveal that the resistance of recycled crushed brick to abrasion is relatively low in comparison with
natural aggregate which is about 5 to 10 percent (Khaloo 1994) which possibly reduces the compressive strength of
concrete made with such low quality aggregates.



Edited By GB_Groundworks on 1275177404

[lutonlagerlout]

I hold my hands up giles,its a fair cop
i can understand brick breaking down under duress but it cannot turn back into clay surely?
anyway as you say stone is far superior so why take less
back to the opening poster,this seems a common problem where people are promised the earth then get a load of crap
you could try trading standards or small claims,but be aware that these things tend to drag on and from personal experience ( i was a witness in a small claims dispute ) my mate went from thinking he was getting £2.5k,to having to pay the other bloke a grand in 5 minutes
small claims courts are just a big room with a sozzled old judge where you can abuse each other
LLL

[Mikey_C]

presuming the OP is going to keep it and use what in terms of advice on a way forward can we give him.

my suggestion would be during the process of shifting and grading, remove as much of the foreign object matter as possible. then when level and compacted cover liberally with neat cement and wash in with water, also add a decent landscaping fabric under the subase (if not to late). then if possible when the subase is down and compacted try driving on it as much as possible before the final finish (blocks, mac etc) is added.

[seanandruby]

If it's any consolation, when i was just starting in the game, most of the roads were laid directly on to that type of crush. My first job was walking the road throwing out tons of shite, ie; timber, paper etc. the copper etc was quite an earner then with a share out every now and again, then in the pub.

[GB_Groundworks]

springling cement over it wont help and is a waste of money, when they use cement and lime to stabalise bad ground its mixed with the earth to get a proper mix, inorder to form a cbm it would need to be mixed.

it all depends on how forth right he can be, if as he says he's ordered Type 1 as per specification for highway works clause 803 then he has a recourse if it falls outside the sizing or contains sand gravel or soil. the clause allows for recycled materials but not foreign objects ie soil wood etc.

your in tough position as a non regular customer they have no loyalty to you so to speak, if it where say us we buy a lot of aggregate and they'd risk losing a customer, in the past when we've had dodgy loads from the quarry, generally not enough fines they either only charged us haulage or credited our account.

if its an independent did you speak to the manager/owner, my experience of independents is they aim to please as its s hard to compete with the big boys like jewsons/Travis.

nothing like a bit of bad PR for business