European fan pattern in clay cobbles

[teddington]

Great site!! very helpful.

I am about to embark on laying my patio. Its 8m by 3m (24m^2 approx.) I wanted to use Marshals 56x56x60 clay cobble. Looking at your setting out Info for the fan it would mean using a 560mm radius. Is that right and will that look okay?

If yes do you have any tips and tricks, especially for setting out on site. I planed to have a border running the perimeter of the patio of 2 clay cobbles deep. This was to enclose the design. I realise that on the edge I will need to split the cobbles to fill the gaps, but within the complete fans do you need split cobbles?

I understand this is not the easiest pattern. I have laid simple blocks before but I think the fan design would look great.

Hope you can help.

[84-1093879891]

It's a total doddle laying fans with the little clay cobbles, but use a 1120mm radius rather than 560mm, as a 560mm radius is too small to be noticed and will look 'bitty' on a patio.

In fact, you could probably get away with a 1m radius, giving you 3 full fans to one width of the patio, excluding the border edging. I have a drawing somewhere - give me a couple of hours to finish what I'm supposed to be doing and I'll see if I can find it and post it to this thread.

I have used a fan pattern with the clay cobbles on a number of occasions and they have to be the easiest paving unit to use with what is normally a complex pattern. You will need to split a few cobbles, but they are easily and accurately cracked with a lump hammer and bolster, and, because they have a raggedy-rusticky jagged edge anyway, you don't need to be exact. :)

For the border, I'd strongly recommend using a 200x100 clay paver. It forms a definite frame, rather than a bitty border, especially if a contrasting colour is used. There are some pix on the portfolio page that show the cobbles with a full-sized clay pavior as a border/soldier edging.

More later. :)

[84-1093879891]

Images as promised....

This first one is a layout for a 560mm radius layout....



...while this second image is for a larger 870mm radius fan, which would give you 3 full fans across the patio, assuming a 200mm wide soldier course at the perimeter.




Any help?

I'd definitely use the larger fan. The 560mm radius will look too small and will lose itself. The fans need to be large enough to impress upon the eye, but not so big that you have to stand at the top of the next street to understand the layout. The ideal fan size for a patio project is usually between 900mm and 1500mm radius.

[teddington]

Thank you very much for your time and trouble. Once I have drawn out my deign I would like to send it to you so that you could see if it was viable! I am not sure if I should use ordinary cobbles or Tumbled cobbles. Which do you prefer or is it just a matter of individual taste? Colour!! we have a red brick house initial thoughts were for a red/brown cobble but now i have seen blue/grey I quite like. Does it look okay to mix red and blue?

Thanks again for you rapid help

[84-1093879891]

Tumbled cobbles? Do you mean the Tegula Cobbles from Marshalls? They are somewhat bigger than the little clay cobbles - 80x80, IIRC. They look great as fans, but the colour isn't as strong as the clays.

The teg cobbles are quite subtle and don't look as natural as clay cobbles, but then, they don't get colonised by mosses quite as quickly as do the clays.

I'd make my choice depending on the look I was trying to achieve - rustic and lived in, definitely the clays: clean, up-to-date but traditional, the Teg Cobbles. Cost wise, I don't think there's more than coppers difference between the two.

Have you seen either of these products "in real life" or have you only seen publicity shots in the catalogues?

[teddington]

I have only seen them on your site.
The tumbled cobbles were from Baggeridge Brick plc.
But you are right we will hve to see actual samples before we decide.
The idea of the fan again came from your site. I feel the only problem is seeing a sample will be difficult to imagine the finished design in our garden.

[84-1093879891]

Aaaah! I know the ones you mean - they come in 3 sizes, 50x50, 75x75 and 100x100. I designed a job using the 100x100s in a fan pattern last year.

If you contact Baggeridge they'll tell you where you can see the cobbles 'in situ'. They keep a list of projects where their products have been used. Try to view a job that's at least 12 months old, preferably 2 years or more, as the character 'mellows' with time as dust and detritus become ingrained and make the units look much more 'lived-in', IYKWIM. :)

[teddington]

We have now decided on using Marshalls Clay Cobbles, (56x56x60) and I think the Multi red colour. However I have just been looking at the price and I can not belive how expensive they are!! £620 for 11.2m^2. That is 3 times more expensive than block paves (200x100mm) and over twice as expensive as good quality slabs!!!
Am I right or have I mis-calculated? I was very supprised.

[84-1093879891]

That's a bit on the expensive side, but that might be because you only need a relatively small quantity. Try shopping around, and don't rely on just one price, especially if it's from Travis Bloody Perkins.

It's worth asking a local paving contractor for a price, as I know a client that has bought them for less than 30 quid per m2 in the last 12 months. They might be able to get you a keener price by adding whatever you need to a local order.

[teddington]

was that £30 plus VAT ????

The prices i have been quoted is 12p to 16p per cobble plus VAT. I only need 15m2 so i suppose that is a realativly low order. The prices were form the builder centre

[84-1093879891]

24 quid plus VAT = 28.20 per m2

That was for delivery to Sheffield (from Accrington, where they are made) and was for 112m2, IIRC. I'm pretty sure they were bought through a local BM not one of the nationals such as TP or Builder Center(sic)

I'll see if I can get hold of the contractor tomorrow and find out just who they went through, if you'll pardon the expression. ;)

[teddington]

down to basics!!

I am sure it is on your site but.....

I have 15m2 of old concrete patio. This is broken out. there is some existing sub grade material so i am putting down type 1 to a depth of around 75mm. then a bed of sand to about 50mm. the bedding sand will be about 53mm below the edge course so that the 56x56x60mm clay cobbles will be 7mm proud this will be taken down by using a rubber backed wacker plate. therefore how much sand and type 1 do i need?? I thought 2t of type 1 and 1t of bedding sand. Is 1t what is delivered in those material bags? I ask all these questions because i am not sure if clay cobbles have a different procedure than claypavs.

Thank you again for being so helpful

[84-1093879891]

2T of DTp1 should just about be enough. Depending on how accurate these Agg Bag tonnes are (some are sold by volume rather than weight) and the moisture content/rock type, I calculate you need around 2.1 Tonnes.

However, 1 Tonne of bedding sand won't be enough for 15m2. You need nearer 1.5 tonnes, again depending on moisture content, which means buying 2 agg bags full. Given that you are tight with the sub-base material, you really can't afford to run short of bedding. get 2 T of sand - the surplus can always be used for making haunching concrete or even added to the garden to improve a clay soil. :)

[teddington]

I have now finished the garden and would just like to say thank you very much for all your very helpful advice. It all worked very well and i am very keen now to do the front. I have emailed you some photos as it must be nice to realise that you really do make a difference.

Thanks again and I will be back.

[84-1093879891]

Your pictures do you enormous credit and they shall be appearing on the DIY Paving Page in the next few days. :)

Congratulations on such a great job!