Flag pattern design

[madunphy]

Hi All/Tony,

Back again for more advice, After doing all that work on the garden, there I go and decide to extend the house!!!, and its all a bit if a mess at the moment.

Anyhow, due to the extension, looking to build a pathway around the house using sandstone flags. One segment of the pathway will be aprox 900mm wide and the other will be 600mm wide.

The flags come in these dimensions:

300mm x 300mm
600mm x 300mm
600mm x 600mm

So for each path wide, what sort of flag patterns are possible/suitable?

Thanks

Mike

[seanandruby]

What about tonys design service? wont cost you much.

[lutonlagerlout]

look here mate, it saved me a lot of time for a small charge
cheers LLL

[madunphy]

Hi,

Firstly, thanks to tony for doing the path design work for me. Now as stated, I've the builders from hell at the moment (never again please) and the guy they have ready to do the path way doesnt know his arse from his elbow. I know I know, I shouldn't let him near it, but we've been out of the house almost 5 month, the stress levels are high etc etc.

Hope Tony doesnt mind but I've put the design up on the web for people to see ( goto http://picasaweb.google.com/madunphy/Flags/photo#5086379359914473922 ), as I have a question from this donkey (and myself), that I'm not sure what way to answer that I'm hoping somebody in the know can point me in the right direction. So here goes:

1) I believe that other than where flags need to be cut in, the external edge of the pathway shouldn't be cut in anyway, ie left with the natural edge of the stone. Is this correct?

2) On the wider pathway, I can see from tony's design, that regardless of which direction for take, you cross the same number of joints so that the overall pathway remains square? But on the 600mm (and 900mm) widths, this donkey has raised the question of what to do when he lays a 600mm x 600mm beside the groups of smaller flags that introduce an additional joint. Lets say the joint width is 10mm, then how does he cover the width discrepancy? does he widen the internal joint of the 600x600 against the plinth, or say cut the inside length of a 300x600? I believe the design was to promote less cutting of the flags and thus one would adjust the joints accordingly.

3) Should there be a joint between the plinth and the first flag laid against it, I would think so?

Hope some of you are online to come to my rescue. I'd off to read tonys pages to see if I can uncover the answer.

Thanks

Mike

[Tony McC]

This is a variation on the "joint balancing" problem that is endemic with modular flags, be they stone or concrete. Here's a couple of drawings I use in my one day training course for patio flag laying (next training day is at Creagh Concrete, Toomebridge, Co. Antrim on Aug 14th - contact me if you want to come)....





...the trick is that you have to rely on a variable joint width to achieve best effect.


So, in your example, Mick, it may require a slightly-wider-than-normal joint between flag and plinth, coupled with slightly-narrower-than-normal joints between the flags themselves.

The "aim" is to have a path with edges that are as near 'true' as is feasible. It's a question of laying ALL the flags in one path section, and then adjusting the width of the joints as necessary to bring about the desired level of trueness.

Does that make sense?

[lutonlagerlout]

i wouldnt let the guy near it,if he is that clueless it could end in tears
LLL

[Rich H]

From my usual suppliers the small slabs are cut 295x295 to compensate for this problem allowing you locate 2 small ones next to a 600x600 with no overlap, likewise the 2 x 1's (in old money) are 600 x 295.

This is meat and drink though to anyone who does this for a living so I would agree with LLL's advice!

[madunphy]

update...Seeing that I'm just back on here.

The builder going the work actually didnt do a bad job in the end (aptly with the help of Tony's design, thanks again). We filled the joints with the dark rompox.

4 years down and its only in one or two flags that a small rocking can be felt under foot. What would be the best way to repair if and when this gets worse? lift and redo subbase or "glue" down with something appropriate?

Does the rompox come in smaller sizes to apply to touch up areas etc (like fixing the above for example).

Thanks

Mike

[local patios and driveway]

I would run a grinder around the stone cutting away the rompox, Lift the rocking stones and chipout the bedding layer beneath, rebed and relay.

[lutonlagerlout]

what does the rompox look like now Mike?
i have had poor results 4-5 years down the line with it?
LLL

[madunphy]

hi LLL,

I suppose its not too bad. though in a couple of places, the rompox is breaking down and will need to be repaired (thus the question on smaller retail quantities of the stuff)

See attached 2 recent pictures for you. The first in part of the pathway (which was recently power washed. I tend to wash it infrequent, ie less than 1/year)

The other picture is of a patio we originally put in and pointed the old fashion way. With the last 2 bad winters the frostly weather took its toll on the ponting so just over a year ago we took it out, reset the tumbles in a cement mix and then re-pointed with rompox. Looks better than the cement pointing but as you say time will tell.

This garden is north facing and as such susceptible to moss, mildew, green stuff etc. The sandstone hasnt been sealed. Is this a worthwile exercise to control this growth/weeds?

pictures

Cheers
Mike

[lutonlagerlout]

looks similar to stuff we have installed
TBH I am not happy putting stuff in that will only last 4 years
they can stick their polymerics where the sun dont shine
its better than geos*&T ,but all bran mixed with toothpaste is better than geos%&t
cheers for posting
LLL

[pickwell paving]

they can stick their polymerics where the sun dont shine

I'm starting to feel the same Tony, used some Marshalls weather point buff colour in April went back to price some more work up at the end of October and its gone black already in barely 6 months. Got plenty of fall on it (part of the area is a wheel chair ramp) and its not in a shady area. Sand cement mix 3:1 through a pointing gun from now on I think.

[lutonlagerlout]

well the black can be cleaned off but sadly a layer or polymeric comes with it
I'm bored with all their lies now
we all know sand and cement can last for hundreds or years so thats where its at from now on for me
LLL

[Tony McC]

Most of the polymerics have limited lifespans, which is why I prefer the proper resin mortars. However, even with the very best epoxy resin jointing mortars, you need to be careful, as some of the permeable flavours now being sold are a dream come true for algae: the porosity of the metrial seems to attract greening at a record pace.

However, the standard not-quite-permeable epoxy resin mortars seem to fare much better. I've recently been looking at some paving jointed using just such a mortar in 2001, so 10 years old, and although it looked grubby at first sight, the contractor gave it a quick blast with the rotary cleaner and you'd swear it had been done this summer. It looked like new!

Polymerics were all well and good when they were all that was available, but for permanence and performance, give me the full-bodied epoxy resin mortars any day of the week.