Depth of layers, skip hire, other questions!

[Wildfang]

Dear good people

Following my last postings in Sept 06, I am at the stage where I will soon make a start...but I have some last questions on which I would really appreciate some advice.

Based on the advice I received and taking a considered opinion (and I realise that there were some respondees who don't like the dry bed method), I was planning to incorporate a 70 mm sub-bed ("crusher run" and "type 1 MOT" are terms I have seen in other postings - correct?) topped with a dry 50 mm sharp sand:cement mix at 10:1. The outside edges to be edged with setts bedded down in wet cement directly onto the sub-base.

So my last questions:

1. Since we are talking about pedestrian traffic only and since my existing slabs are just laid on compacted earth (and bearing in mind that some people recommend not to even bother with a sub-base), can I reduce the sub-bed even further?...say to 50 mm? Obviously reduces cost and effort still further

2. 50 mm dry bed - would even 35 mm be sufficient (I will probably by riven slabs)? Again, less cost/effort

3. "DRY" bed?? I have also seen reference to "moist" and "nearly dry". Can I just mix the sand and cement and use as is? Do I really need to "moisten" it?

4. ...and either way, can I just use wheelbarrow and spade to mix it?

5. If use dry, will enough water be absorbed from the underlaying soil to ensure such a weak mix sets...will this happen even with a sub-base (i.e. might act as a barrier to ground water)?

6. Will I need to hire a skip for excavated soil? Even assuming 70 mm sub-base + 50 mm bedding + depth of slabs (what shall we say for this? 30 mm?) = 150 mm deep. Area is 15 m2. Could I just pile it up and get a "man with a van"? Trying to keep costs down!

7. If I lay bedding for slab at a time, will it be easy to maintain the consistency of the slope away from the house across the whole patio?

8. I remember I was advised to lay edging setts first, then flags. However, this still feels counter-intuitive. If I wet bed edging setts in first, I can then dry bed all the flags in to meet the edging, no (and it WILL meet the edging if lay all down first before bedding to check fit)?

9. Does anyone want to guestimate what I may pay for avergae size riven flags (for 15 m2) + sub-bed + bedding + mortar?!

Ta

WF

[lutonlagerlout]

wildfang
procrastination is the thief of time
slabs vary from about £12 a metre for utility, budget. to £40 a metre for wet cast very nice slabs
if you fail to prepare ,prepare to fail mate
do it right and it will last years
cheers LLL

[Ted]

A man with a van will struggle to save you money unless he tips the rubbish in his boss's skip, fly-tips it or puts it in someone else's skip.

It is £75 a tonne in my local tip with a commercial vehicle and you can get more than a tonne into even a small skip.

[Stuarty]

As Ted says, a man with a van will more than likely fly typ. And my area is a frequent place for such folks, so dispose of waste properly, in a skip. You wouldnt like it if you had ~ 100 tonnes of waste dumped on your road every year.

[Wildfang]

Ah, I'm sorry, I should have given this some proper thought - I am one of the most environmentally responsible people you could know (I do it for a living!)!

BUT... my question is do I need a skip? I have no feeling for how much soil 15 m2 at 150 mm deep will generate. If I need a skip - I will get one (cost?)

Any answers to my other questions would be very much appreciated

WF

[Ted]

Well a skip is £180. But a small one can often be had for around a hundred. If you can park it off the street on your driveway (or somewhere else) you avoid the need for a licence and it is harder for your neighbours to fill it.

But what you could do is bag the dirt and rubbish up into rubble sacks (not too much per sack as the bags will be too heavy to lift). Then you can see how much you need to dispose of and what size skip you need. If it is not much you could run it down to the tip in several loads in your car. Or if you do get a man with a van, as it is bagged up, it is much easier for him (so less costly for you) if he just has to chuck the bags on the truck and not bag it all up first. If you get a skip you can also chuck out some other household rubbish...

[lutonlagerlout]

i would say a skip is the best option 6 yd about 130 -200 depending where you live
everyone has got rubbish to lose
cheers tony

[TheVictorianCobbleCo]

OK, so I just found this one. Making the assumption that Wildfang hasn't done this before, and the setts are NOT block pavers, the following. Average wet cast slabs riven about £17 persq m, Indian sandstone about £17 - £30 depending on quality, cheaper than that everybody elses rejects. To lay yourself budget between £35 and £50 per sq m depending on finishes. If your laying a patio, being a 1st timer set out your area properly and work between railway lines, which control your flatness and the slope. Unless your edgings are block pavers - supersmooth, you wil be all over the place level wise. this means you can put your edgings in at the end, which helps if you've "grown" because of varying grout widths. The uneven finish of rivenstone makes your railway tracks important - use 2 x 1 1/2" straight pieces of timber, and a 3rd straight piece of timber to tamp the slab down. I'm going to suggest using a wet pug to lay using 5 dabs, which will give you your levellest finish. Before you lay the following slab butter the previous slab on exposed sides to avoid voids. As regards pedestrian traffic, if your base is sound, smooth it flat, run over it with a wacker plate. if not put 3" of MOT 1 or sim and wacker that. The pug can go straight on top of that. 15m area x .15 = 2.25 m3 of rubble expanded somwhat because it not now compact. A Hippo bag costs about £50 fo 1m3 but I think from what you say, bag your rubble and tip it at the dump, or borrow a trailer, if the rubble comes from your home its not chargeable. At the end of the day, you can only save SO much before it becomes counterproductive, and as said before if you dont do it properly 1st, be prepared to do it again.

[TheVictorianCobbleCo]

Please shout if you need more help. Good Luck.

[lutonlagerlout]

is it just me seeing double here??
our local tidy tip wont take rubble anymore from anyone,when you add the fuel costs of taking stuff in bags in your car (vans trucks lorries not allowed under any circumstances) a skip works out cheaper
LLL

[lutonlagerlout]

wet pug to lay using 5 dabs

satan has awoke
don't let the gaffer hear you suggesting 5 spot method bill ,or you will be in detention after class
LMAO LLL

[Wildfang]

W.G. (Victorian cobblestone)

Thanks for your advice. As will all respondees, the advice varies, but think I am formulating a plan! Comments answers on the following would be great:

1. I got my point 8 the wrong way round. What I should have said was I had been advised to lay flags first and edging last to make the flags fit....and I also take W.G.s point - if I lay edging first, my slope might be out and lead to flags at outside edging being higher or lower than the edging. BUT what happens when I lay all flags and then have either too much of a gap left for the width of my edging units ? just turf over? but wouldn't the underlaying sub-base cause the turf to die? Or conversely, there is not enough gap for the edging

2. I think I am going to use 75 mm sub-base of Type 1. But will just trample and use weight of a sledge hammer - is a hire of a wacker plate essential? Either way, I assume I will have to maintain the slope even at the sub-bed level - I can imagine this must be very difficult! ?

3. Will use 50 mm (maybe 40 mm) 10:1 sand:cemet dry mix for bedding as per this site - NOT spot- wet bedding.

4. On the slope, there does not seem to be a lot on this site as to how a DIY-er should set it up. Various other sources talk about using pegs marked with the depths of the various layers and then the use of a long spirit level atop a 1.5 m baton with a 25mm thick block of wood placed on the lower peg. If level, then the lower peg must be 25mm lower than first peg, meaning a 25 mm drop in 1.5 m. OK??? Any easier way?

5. On setting up I was going to use builder square, string and pegs. not sure what is meant by "railway lines"

6. Won't use skip - no way I would fill it. Just rubble bags and the car! I have seen no indication that my local tip charges!

7. Do I really need to butter the edges before laying next slab? Can I not just lay all un-buttered then point all on completion? (allows for easier lifting/corrections as I go along if unbuttered)....or will the joins be too deep doing it this way to point effectively?

8. My biggest worry is about maintaining the slope of the soil under base, the type 1 sub base and the dry bedding - especially as laying the latter 1 flag at a time - will this be a nightmare?!

Thanks

Wild

[lutonlagerlout]

wild
a wacker will compact things better. but a sledge hammer and a length of 4 by 2 will be ok for pedestrian use
no you do not need to butter the slabs before laying, i never do and i dont get problems
better to lay the outsides first. but remember it is better to have a 5mm gap, than a 5mm cut off of a slab
your bedding mix can vary from 40-70 mm dont get too hungup on it as long as the subbase is not high you are ok
you will need a rubber mallet about £2.99 from wickes b and q etc
you will make mistakes but do not get depressed about it,just rectify and carry on
Good luck
LLL