Unhappy with tradesmans work - Your opinions please

[mch]

Right...

We've had a patio laid by a "professional builder" I'm not going to get into naming and shaming or any of that, unfortunately it appears to have been a not so professional outcome...

The patio is laid in part onto a concrete slab (put in place for a garden building) with the remainder laid onto soil...

The manufacturers guidelines have not been followed (we subsequently downloaded them to check) and we are already having issues only some 2 weeks after install.

From what we saw of the installation and what is visible the slabs were laid onto 50mm or there abouts of a sand/cement bed directly onto the concrete slab and also directly to soil (with offcuts of some form of DPM on-top of the soil no jointing tape used)

Grout is a mix of sand/cement and the builder said he applied a "dye"


A list of the issues we have are below;

Slabs "sinking" which in time will cause a trip hazard

Joins are wildly varying sizes (from almost no gap to 30mm and over).

"Grout" is a poor mix of sand/cement, crumbles, colour is bleeding and water just soaks through.

Multiple slabs sound "hollow" and there is an increasing number.

The laying pattern which we supplied when asked has not been followed, has 4 cross joints.

No drainage was added surrounding the garden building and slabs laid with a mortar join against the timber causing damp issues

Fleets are all over the place.

Grout "wetness" seems to go way beyond where rainfall has caused, we suspect a lot of water underneath the slabs. (he blames us for not sealing it, but told us not to for a couple months)

I have uploaded some videos to youtube;

https://youtu.be/NZkiFjI0lFM (patio slabs sounding hollow, not the best video)

https://youtu.be/qNvebmV2Dec (patio grout crumbly)

https://youtu.be/qKdHVZXwuog (grout absorbing water)


He also constructed a "water feature" that due to the 60mm+ fall across 3m/3.5m there's no way it will work as it overflows before filling and looks like an eyesore.

We have had a few other tradesmen visit who so far have all said the patio needs fully uplifting and re-laying (all saying 803 hardcore needs going under the bit that's currently 50mm bed onto soil)

What are your opinions?

[mch]

The joints don't seem to serve a purpose in terms of width to allow for the size variation in slabs, it seems more lack of care in installation... there is one slab in particular that appears to have been laid on the wonk, with one corner almost touching the next slab and then the other end with a gap of 10mm+
Had he taken care, where the joints vary there would be some visible attempt to align slabs evenly which hasn't been done. He's also ignored the manufacturers pattern layout (we printed this out)

Jointing was from what we saw a sand/cement mix with cementone dye... no waterproofer has been added as it acts like a giant sponge and sucks in any water... also the dye is coming out of the mortar and staining the slabs...

Slabs are in 5 sizes

855 x 570
570 x 570
570 x 425
570 x 285
285 x 285

Manufacturer states joints to be 10mm - 15mm

We randomly have 9 of the 285 x 285 left over along with offcuts of larger slabs and a full 15.83m2 pack (we bought extra to ensure we kept the pattern but he over estimated the square meterage needed)

All in all I think the builder should be ashamed of himself if I'm honest.



Read more: https://www.diynot.com/diy....nb3xk9Q

[dig dug dan]

Oh dear oh dear oh dear!
As soon as you said " laid on soil" I knew we were in for a bumpy ride.
What on earth are some of those cuts??
The hollow sound is not clear on the video, but I suspect they laid them on four spots of mortar, not a full bed. I bet they didn't use a bond bridge either?
As for the grouting, if they used easijoint, then its designed to absorb water, but the slabs need to be bedded correctly or the water will get underneath and lift them.
That grouting doesn't look like essijoint to me.
Its is difficult to get even joints with a random pattern, which is why so many people now lay coursed lines, but that's beside the point, if you had a plan,why wasnt it stuck to?
And what on earth is a dpm doing under a patio??

[mch]

They laid on a bed rather than 4 spots but I think the mix was poor...

The water going underneath I suspect is part of the problem as I suspect it's eroding all the "bed"... there has become more and more hollow sounding slabs as time has gone on.

Bond bridge?

I'm pretty sure the mortar joints are builders sand mixed with cement, cementone dye and a mortar plasticiser (cementone say to use waterproofer for exterior which I don't believe was done)

As for the size of joins, i've since seen photographs of another install by a local landscaper of the same slabs (diff colour) and the joints all look uniform in the pictures and the slabs all look far more even and level (I've contacted for a quote)

[Tony McC]

Truly. Awful.

There's not much more I can say.

This is a classic example of why paving should be installed by *paving* professionals, not generalists. It's a skill. It's not a task for labourers or those who guess they know how to do the job.

[mch]

[mch]

[dig dug dan]

The damp proof membrane is adding to the problem. The water cant escape anywhere . That mix is too dry.
A bond bridge is a mixture of sbr and cement, and its painted on the back of the slab to enable it to stick to the mortar. They haven't done this.
The whole lot will have to come up, dpm removed, dig out the soil, replace with suitable sub base, and re laid properly I'm afraid

[mch]

The damp proof membrane is adding to the problem. The water cant escape anywhere . That mix is too dry.
A bond bridge is a mixture of sbr and cement, and its painted on the back of the slab to enable it to stick to the mortar. They haven't done this.
The whole lot will have to come up, dpm removed, dig out the soil, replace with suitable sub base, and re laid properly I'm afraid

ahh I see, the other trades that visited asked if they had applied "slurry" to the back of the slabs (also mentioned in the manufacturers installation guide) and no is the answer to that...

I also tried to prove that he was lying to us when he said he added waterproofer to the mortar mix by making up my own with waterproofer...

The result...

His mix from a piece we dug out - placed in shallow water and in no time it sucks it up like a sponge and is sodden

My attempt at a mix - the bit in the water gets wet but no absorbing

think that speaks for itself

[dig dug dan]

What do you propose to do. Presume you have paid him in full? Get I
Him to come back and re do the lot for free? If he refuses, get someone else and charge it back to him?

[mch]

What do you propose to do. Presume you have paid him in full? Get I
Him to come back and re do the lot for free? If he refuses, get someone else and charge it back to him?

He's been back, laughed off the faults and refuses to rectify...

So we're going to need proper "evidence" in the form of either several written opinions from other patio installers or a proper report (I've enquired on the main site here)

To be honest though, even if he offered to fix it I'm not sure he's capable

[dig dug dan]

Sounds like you need to get a written report, then ask him to rectify at his cost.
Once you have done that, and he refuses, you can start proceedings against him to recover the costs of the new install.
What a shame

[mch]

He did the guttering on the timber building too...
We found a spirit level in it...
The water sits snd doesn't run away... when we checked some bits run uphill so will never drain, he put no thought into joint placement, hasn't used enough brackets despite us supplying
Also he's fitted the brackets that high its forcing the shingles up...

So clearly an utter cowboy...

[dig dug dan]

Oh dear! To quote Tony mcc , give him a bucket of oats for his horse

[mch]

A further development,

We've noticed today there are now patterns appearing on some slabs... from reading some of the info on the main page I think this relates to the "voids" underneath the slabs...
See SOME examples of it here;