Hi Brew Cabin,
First time homeowner, first garden makeover, first patio project, first post here! Please forgive schoolboy questions.
I've been excavating the garden for the last few weekends in preparation for laying a 6m path and 5m x 3m patio. The existing paths in the garden were made of small white stones (see pics below). I've dug this up and it was all very compacted with earth and some weeds. I've done my best to separate but have ended up with about 40 rubble sacks of stones, earth, bit of shingle etc...
Before I hire a skip to get rid, I wanted to check with some people in the know - could I use this as my sub base for the patio? Maybe mixed with some sharp sand?
Any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks
Ben
https://ibb.co/k2MeyS
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https://ibb.co/hOcKyS
Old stone path reused as sub base? - Save buying mot1?
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lutonlagerlout
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Jammin
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Thanks LLL.
Why does its ‘dirtiness’ make a difference? Do you not think it would bond well when wackered down? I want to do it properly but it is quite a trek from the garden to the block of garages which is the only place skip/MOT1 could be located. Still, if that’s what it takes to be sure it’s firm then so be it. FYI I’m planning on laying sawn sandstone or porcelain slabs on a full mortar bed.
Another question, unrelated to the sub base - I was planning on having the patio fall into an aco drain at the far end of the garden, but the surface water drain downpipe from the house’s gutters goes into my neighbours garden not ours, so I can’t connect the aco to it. A chap at the local builders yard suggested I could drill holes to perforate the aco to drain into the ground below, basically just making the aco a temporary reservoir. Is something that is done? I can’t find any other info that suggests so. Am I just going to create a pond?
Thanks!
Ben
Why does its ‘dirtiness’ make a difference? Do you not think it would bond well when wackered down? I want to do it properly but it is quite a trek from the garden to the block of garages which is the only place skip/MOT1 could be located. Still, if that’s what it takes to be sure it’s firm then so be it. FYI I’m planning on laying sawn sandstone or porcelain slabs on a full mortar bed.
Another question, unrelated to the sub base - I was planning on having the patio fall into an aco drain at the far end of the garden, but the surface water drain downpipe from the house’s gutters goes into my neighbours garden not ours, so I can’t connect the aco to it. A chap at the local builders yard suggested I could drill holes to perforate the aco to drain into the ground below, basically just making the aco a temporary reservoir. Is something that is done? I can’t find any other info that suggests so. Am I just going to create a pond?
Thanks!
Ben
Ben
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lutonlagerlout
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what he has described is a total botch
if you have acos they need to go to a soakaway or drain
if you do it right once it will last a long time!
and yes it may be a trek but IMHO there are not enough fines in those white chippings to bond it.
none of the pros on here would do it
it will be worth it long term Ben
LLL
if you have acos they need to go to a soakaway or drain
if you do it right once it will last a long time!
and yes it may be a trek but IMHO there are not enough fines in those white chippings to bond it.
none of the pros on here would do it
it will be worth it long term Ben
LLL
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John156
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Jammin
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Thanks LLL, I'll put in the effort and get rid of the old stones and in with the new MOT1.
It didn't seem right to me to be perforating the aco. I guess if we are going to use one then I would have to dig a soakaway under the patio. I was looking at the Aquavoid water crates, but I could only dig deep enough to get 1m x 333mm in there I think, no chance of a cubic meter. Have you any experience with these?
John156, the plan is just to pave the rear of the garden, the last 3 meters, and have a matching paved path running from the decked area by the house out to the patio. Then I'll also build a raised bed alongside the path out of oak sleepers. The rest will be lawn again (re-turfed or seeded) and I'm hoping to use a recessed manhole cover that takes turf to hide it in the lawn. Not sure how successful that'll be!
The garden has a tendency to get a bit waterlogged as the soil is quite clayey so I'd like to do all I can to avoid this in the future, especially with more hard landscaping now. But I like your idea of bring the patio slightly towards the house and draining into a flower bed.
Thanks for all the advice. I have a feeling I'll have lots of questions throughout this project!
Ben
It didn't seem right to me to be perforating the aco. I guess if we are going to use one then I would have to dig a soakaway under the patio. I was looking at the Aquavoid water crates, but I could only dig deep enough to get 1m x 333mm in there I think, no chance of a cubic meter. Have you any experience with these?
John156, the plan is just to pave the rear of the garden, the last 3 meters, and have a matching paved path running from the decked area by the house out to the patio. Then I'll also build a raised bed alongside the path out of oak sleepers. The rest will be lawn again (re-turfed or seeded) and I'm hoping to use a recessed manhole cover that takes turf to hide it in the lawn. Not sure how successful that'll be!
The garden has a tendency to get a bit waterlogged as the soil is quite clayey so I'd like to do all I can to avoid this in the future, especially with more hard landscaping now. But I like your idea of bring the patio slightly towards the house and draining into a flower bed.
Thanks for all the advice. I have a feeling I'll have lots of questions throughout this project!
Ben
Ben
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lutonlagerlout
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its great that you have arrived here before you got going in earnest,most come here when some eejit has made a total bollox of it :;):
we have helped a fair few homeowners turn out some stunning stuff over the years
we use the aquacell crates
2 are better than 1, be careful with too much drainage as you can dessicate the garden,you could construct the soakaway under the patio and cover it with concrete
cheers LLL
we have helped a fair few homeowners turn out some stunning stuff over the years
we use the aquacell crates
2 are better than 1, be careful with too much drainage as you can dessicate the garden,you could construct the soakaway under the patio and cover it with concrete
cheers LLL
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Jammin
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Thanks LLL. What do you think of John156's suggestion of just trying to drain the patio into beds? This would save digging out a hole for the aquacells, but may not be as effective.
Could I have two aquacells next to each other horizontally?
If I go for the aquacell then I would also probably run a narrow aco linear channel (like the hexdrain brickslot) down the length of the path to feed into it too.
On the other side of the this narrow slot channel I would like to have a sunken sleeper to edge the path/lawn. Is this feasible? How long would a sleeper actually last in the ground? Would treated softwood or hardwood be better? I know this is a paving forum, but just wondering if anyone has had experience of this before?
Final question (for now). I'm leaning towards porcelain paving as it seems low maintenance and not as susceptible to staining. I was looking at some square 600x600 slabs which I could do in a simple grid for the patio, but the path would need to be wider, say 900mm. How easy are these porcelain slabs to cut? Would one of the hydraulic splitters available to hire do it?
Thanks all.
Could I have two aquacells next to each other horizontally?
If I go for the aquacell then I would also probably run a narrow aco linear channel (like the hexdrain brickslot) down the length of the path to feed into it too.
On the other side of the this narrow slot channel I would like to have a sunken sleeper to edge the path/lawn. Is this feasible? How long would a sleeper actually last in the ground? Would treated softwood or hardwood be better? I know this is a paving forum, but just wondering if anyone has had experience of this before?
Final question (for now). I'm leaning towards porcelain paving as it seems low maintenance and not as susceptible to staining. I was looking at some square 600x600 slabs which I could do in a simple grid for the patio, but the path would need to be wider, say 900mm. How easy are these porcelain slabs to cut? Would one of the hydraulic splitters available to hire do it?
Thanks all.
Ben
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Tony McC
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So much going on with this thread!
The 'dirty' salvaged stone. As LLL says, it's not a good idea to re-use this as the 'dirt' will not act as a binder: it will break down over time, disintegrate and result in settlement. There is a lot of science behind why we use a Type 1 granular material, right down to the type of aggregate that is suitable and the grain shape. One thing that all the suitable sub-base materials have in common, whether they are Type 1, Type 2 or Type 3, is they are *clean*. They do NOT have dirt or other contaminants mixed into them. Dirt degrades and it also acts as a lubricant, making it easier for individual 'stones' to slide past each other, so the essential stability of a sub-base is lost.
On to the linear channel drain. There is a good reason why the spotty herbert advocating the drilling of holes in the base of a linear channel is tucked away behind a counter and not allowed out on site. It's because he's an eejit.
You might as well simply allow surface water to tip over the edge of the pavement as spend good money on a vandalised channel. After all, it's the same result: the surface water is directed to the sub-grade directly beneath the paved area, which is less than ideal in an area that you describe as prone to waterlogging. Much better to send it somewhere else.
So, the storm crates are the obvious answer. They can be positioned at a suitable spot in the garden, where gravity will help deliver surface water collected from the patio and pathways, and away from any vulbnerable stuctures. You can lay crates side-by-side, if you wish, but do try to get them as deep as possible.
Sleepers: use ONLY treated timber. Hardwood is the better choice, but is usually far more expensive and whether hard- or softwood, the lifespan is limited but should give you at least 10 years.
Porcelain: you need a specialist continuous-rim blade to safely cut these pavings. They *will* cut with a normal blade, but there is a much greater risk of the cut going awry, either cracking/shattering the tile or swerving off-line. A hydraulic splitter will definitely shatter them! The best porcelain installers are, almost to a man, now using bench saws fitted with high-quality specialist porcelain blades.
Of course, you could look at sourcing 900mm wide units. There are quite a few suppliers now offering the same porcelain as 600x600 and 900x300 or 900x600. That would elimante the need for cutting....for most of the job, at least.
The 'dirty' salvaged stone. As LLL says, it's not a good idea to re-use this as the 'dirt' will not act as a binder: it will break down over time, disintegrate and result in settlement. There is a lot of science behind why we use a Type 1 granular material, right down to the type of aggregate that is suitable and the grain shape. One thing that all the suitable sub-base materials have in common, whether they are Type 1, Type 2 or Type 3, is they are *clean*. They do NOT have dirt or other contaminants mixed into them. Dirt degrades and it also acts as a lubricant, making it easier for individual 'stones' to slide past each other, so the essential stability of a sub-base is lost.
On to the linear channel drain. There is a good reason why the spotty herbert advocating the drilling of holes in the base of a linear channel is tucked away behind a counter and not allowed out on site. It's because he's an eejit.
You might as well simply allow surface water to tip over the edge of the pavement as spend good money on a vandalised channel. After all, it's the same result: the surface water is directed to the sub-grade directly beneath the paved area, which is less than ideal in an area that you describe as prone to waterlogging. Much better to send it somewhere else.
So, the storm crates are the obvious answer. They can be positioned at a suitable spot in the garden, where gravity will help deliver surface water collected from the patio and pathways, and away from any vulbnerable stuctures. You can lay crates side-by-side, if you wish, but do try to get them as deep as possible.
Sleepers: use ONLY treated timber. Hardwood is the better choice, but is usually far more expensive and whether hard- or softwood, the lifespan is limited but should give you at least 10 years.
Porcelain: you need a specialist continuous-rim blade to safely cut these pavings. They *will* cut with a normal blade, but there is a much greater risk of the cut going awry, either cracking/shattering the tile or swerving off-line. A hydraulic splitter will definitely shatter them! The best porcelain installers are, almost to a man, now using bench saws fitted with high-quality specialist porcelain blades.
Of course, you could look at sourcing 900mm wide units. There are quite a few suppliers now offering the same porcelain as 600x600 and 900x300 or 900x600. That would elimante the need for cutting....for most of the job, at least.
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Jammin
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Hi Tony, thanks for the detailed help here and throughout this amazing site.
I'm on board with the sub-base and appreciate the scientific reasoning for doing it properly. I'll just keep thinking about that aggregate bonding perfectly while I lug the 700th wheelbarrow load in!
Re the aco / soakaway - I knew there was something fishy about that guy's advice, but he seemed so certain. Well, I'm going to get myself a mattock and see how deep I can get in order to bury an aquacell under the patio. So far I haven't managed to dig much deeper than 400mm. Any reason that burying it under the patio would be better than under the lawn?
Do you run perforated drainage pipes to the soakaway? Wrapped in a membrane, of course. Or solid pipes?
Thanks so much for the warning about cutting porcelain. As a total novice in this field, it would be great to avoid having to cut them at all. I haven't seen any suppliers selling split packs/individual 900x600 slabs in order to do the path, but have found a decent priced 600x600 pack from RoyaleStone that would do the whole job. In order to then have a wider path, I might scrap the oak sleeper idea and edge the path with bricks to give another 200mm. Seem reasonable? If you have any tips for suppliers that do split packs, that would be great, but I'll keep on googling.
Do you think I should try and get the raised beds (made out of oak sleepers) in place before I lay the path? Or vice versa?
I've drawn up a plan linked below. This was done back when I was thinking about 900x600 sandstone slabs that I felt more confident in cutting. FYI, the strange shaped thing at the end of the raised bed is a water butt that will be hooked up to the downpipe of a canopy that is over some of the decking. I think the rest is self explanatory.
https://ibb.co/iTV1Xx
I really appreciate all the advice. It is a great help. Just need to order some materials pretty soon now as I'm planning on doing this (well at least the paving) over the long Easter weekend as my brother will be here to do help with the heavy lifting!
Cheers
Ben
I'm on board with the sub-base and appreciate the scientific reasoning for doing it properly. I'll just keep thinking about that aggregate bonding perfectly while I lug the 700th wheelbarrow load in!
Re the aco / soakaway - I knew there was something fishy about that guy's advice, but he seemed so certain. Well, I'm going to get myself a mattock and see how deep I can get in order to bury an aquacell under the patio. So far I haven't managed to dig much deeper than 400mm. Any reason that burying it under the patio would be better than under the lawn?
Do you run perforated drainage pipes to the soakaway? Wrapped in a membrane, of course. Or solid pipes?
Thanks so much for the warning about cutting porcelain. As a total novice in this field, it would be great to avoid having to cut them at all. I haven't seen any suppliers selling split packs/individual 900x600 slabs in order to do the path, but have found a decent priced 600x600 pack from RoyaleStone that would do the whole job. In order to then have a wider path, I might scrap the oak sleeper idea and edge the path with bricks to give another 200mm. Seem reasonable? If you have any tips for suppliers that do split packs, that would be great, but I'll keep on googling.
Do you think I should try and get the raised beds (made out of oak sleepers) in place before I lay the path? Or vice versa?
I've drawn up a plan linked below. This was done back when I was thinking about 900x600 sandstone slabs that I felt more confident in cutting. FYI, the strange shaped thing at the end of the raised bed is a water butt that will be hooked up to the downpipe of a canopy that is over some of the decking. I think the rest is self explanatory.
https://ibb.co/iTV1Xx
I really appreciate all the advice. It is a great help. Just need to order some materials pretty soon now as I'm planning on doing this (well at least the paving) over the long Easter weekend as my brother will be here to do help with the heavy lifting!
Cheers
Ben
Ben
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Tony McC
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The soakaway can go anywhere, but it really ought to be at least 5 metres from any structure. Sometimes, they go beneath a (larger) patio, but most often they go into a graden area where, althought it almost never happens, if access is ever required, it's easier to dig it all up again.
Finding 'bargain' porcelain is less of a challenge than finding porcelain of certain sizes. Now that it's taking almost 8% of the patio market, every market trader and his pet dog are flogging procelain, and a lot of it isn't quite as good as it should be. This evolution of the market is more or less exactly what we saw with Indian sandstone 20-25 years ago. It started off fine, market share grew, then the conmen moved in selling shite at unbelievably low prices and the whole market became devalued.
Sleepers: I hate them, but if you are going to include them, get the damned things in position first, so they can start rotting and greening-up that bit sooner!
Coming back to porcelain sizes, it's simply a matter of looking through the brochures of the better suppliers, so, in no particular order, Rock Unique, Pavestone, Global Stone, Brett, Bradstone, Natural/Talasey, Marshalls, Stonemarket, London Stone, CED and so on. One or more of them *will* have precisely what you're looking for.
Finding 'bargain' porcelain is less of a challenge than finding porcelain of certain sizes. Now that it's taking almost 8% of the patio market, every market trader and his pet dog are flogging procelain, and a lot of it isn't quite as good as it should be. This evolution of the market is more or less exactly what we saw with Indian sandstone 20-25 years ago. It started off fine, market share grew, then the conmen moved in selling shite at unbelievably low prices and the whole market became devalued.
Sleepers: I hate them, but if you are going to include them, get the damned things in position first, so they can start rotting and greening-up that bit sooner!
Coming back to porcelain sizes, it's simply a matter of looking through the brochures of the better suppliers, so, in no particular order, Rock Unique, Pavestone, Global Stone, Brett, Bradstone, Natural/Talasey, Marshalls, Stonemarket, London Stone, CED and so on. One or more of them *will* have precisely what you're looking for.
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lutonlagerlout
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Jammin
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Not so many fans of sleepers round here then? :p Honestly, I'm not going to be in this house longer than 5-8 years and this project is big enough on my own without adding the building of walls for the raised beds! Looks like we're sticking with sleepers. But whether they're oak or treated softwood is still TBC.
So this was another weekend of trying to dig the garden up, somewhat hampered by the snow, but I persisted anyway. My deadline of the Easter bank holiday to lay this patio is approaching fast.
Slabs are ordered and I'm about to place the order for all the MOT, sand, cement etc...
We've decided to go with a brick edging (using block pavers as they're closer in depth to the porcelain) to the path and patio, rather than my original idea of sinking a sleeper, as there were some concerns it would end up being slippery. I've got some ProJoint grout for between the porcelain slabs, but I'm guessing this won't be any good for between the block paving bricks. What would you recommend using? I looked at your page on laying a brick edge - http://www.pavingexpert.com/edging08.htm and can't see that any pointing was used there, is this what you'd suggest for the patio edging? Some of it will have the short edge of the brick adjacent to the patio, and some will have the long edge.
Also, can I lay these bricks on the same full wet bed (planning 6:1 mix) as the porcelain slabs, at the same time?
Thanks
Ben
So this was another weekend of trying to dig the garden up, somewhat hampered by the snow, but I persisted anyway. My deadline of the Easter bank holiday to lay this patio is approaching fast.
Slabs are ordered and I'm about to place the order for all the MOT, sand, cement etc...
We've decided to go with a brick edging (using block pavers as they're closer in depth to the porcelain) to the path and patio, rather than my original idea of sinking a sleeper, as there were some concerns it would end up being slippery. I've got some ProJoint grout for between the porcelain slabs, but I'm guessing this won't be any good for between the block paving bricks. What would you recommend using? I looked at your page on laying a brick edge - http://www.pavingexpert.com/edging08.htm and can't see that any pointing was used there, is this what you'd suggest for the patio edging? Some of it will have the short edge of the brick adjacent to the patio, and some will have the long edge.
Also, can I lay these bricks on the same full wet bed (planning 6:1 mix) as the porcelain slabs, at the same time?
Thanks
Ben
Ben
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Tony McC
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Yes: edge course blocks can go on the same bed as the rest of the paving, and there's no requirement for a bound jointing medium with them. You can use simple Kiln Dried Sand, as we would for standard block paving.
With blocks laid on a mortar or concrete bed, the jointing that is essential when they're laid flexibly becomes more or less irrelevant, so KDS will help keep out other, less desirable crap.
With blocks laid on a mortar or concrete bed, the jointing that is essential when they're laid flexibly becomes more or less irrelevant, so KDS will help keep out other, less desirable crap.
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