Paving problems advice please help

[WhatshouldIdo]

Yes photos of s'kaway and any shite work would be good. Did you take before and after photos of s'kaway?

I've got photos of the acos filled up with soil and Geofix washed down into them. What he said was the soakaway is now filled with soil and was within a couple of weeks so not fit for purpose. Obviously all the photos have a time and date stamp on them so that should help support the short time span it's deteriorated in.

[WhatshouldIdo]

https://postimg.org/image/wp6sli87b/

https://postimg.org/image/rs3qqyv6p/

https://postimg.org/image/peo5cfqjb/

I hope these show you how the soakaway is full of soil and isn't draining

[seanandruby]

Were the aco's already on situ? The trouble with channels is that they ( over time ) start silting up, so they need cleaning periodically and the sump silt catcher needs emptying bif you have one.

[r896neo]

I agree with LLL, overall it looks relatively tidy from what i can see. The jointing is obviously crap but the cracking of it looks likes it caused by movement of the flags.

Are they definately laid on mortar? It looks to me like it may have been laid on just sand.

How do you know the soakway is full of soil? It is buried and there is not way to see into it? Do you mean the aco channels are full of soil? Ideally they would discharge into a bottle gulley or silt trap before going into the soakaway.

Tony the head hauncho on here is your man if you need an independant report.

[WhatshouldIdo]

The acos were new with the path and driveway so clean as a whistle. Over 2 days of heavy rain whatever hole he'd dug to drain the water into filled up with soil from my neighbours garden and now when it rains the acos are full straight away. There's no draining at all. One of those photos is the standing water at the end of a day of rain. I think the acos should always be clear of standing water once the rain has stopped but I'd appreciate hearing from you if I'm correct. Over time I'd expect a bit of dirt in the acos. 3 weeks those photos were taken after they'd been put in.

I'm almost certain it's laid on sand even though in the contract it says 'wet lay slabs'.

I've PM'd Tony hoping he might be able to assist.

[sy76uk]

I agree with the others that from the pictures the job looks ok.
There should never be standing water in an aco channel.
If the jointing has failed it needs re jointing.
The paving should be checked for rockers before it is jointed. Fixing a rocker before its jointed is a much easier task.

[r896neo]

I would lift some, i would bet that has been laid on unbound sand.

Believe it or not some MFTRs including tobermore and acheson glover are still recommending flexible sand only bedding as suitable for laying flags.

[Tony McC]

....but sand bedding (unbound) *is* perfectly suitable for some applications!

A rigid (bound) mortar bed seems to be de rigeur nowadays, but for most of the hundreds of years we've been laying flagstones, an unbound bed (cinders, sand, grit) was used, and it worked perfectly well. It's really only over the last 20-25 years or so that we've become obsessed with mortar beds.

Small element flag paving is a prime example of flags that are better laid on an unbound bed, but the technique is also suitable for many other applications where a flexible joint would be acceptable. The two manufacturers you mention supply a lot of concrete textured paving that is, for lightweight projects, perfectly fine when laid on sand. An edge restraint may be needed on some jobs, but not always.

The thing about laying on sand (or cinders, ash, grit, etc) is that it takes a higher degree of skill than mortar bedding as it's a real art ensuring the bed is uniformly compacted. A mortar bed will take up any slack there might be from partial compaction, but with an unbound bed, it *has* to be right.

I honestly believe that spending the vast bulk of my training and apprenticeship laying flags on unbound bedding made me a better flagger. It trains you to get the bed right first time, every time, and get full consolidation.

[r896neo]

I am in northern ireland so mainly use the afore mentioned two.

I previously laid 400x400x50mm units unbound on a screeded grit sand bed largely due to tobermore recommendation to do so. I have stopped doing it though as the tolerances for the paving has got really out of hand. My favourite 400x400 tobermore standard flag is now down to 32mm and so many of them are noticeably dished that it makes them impossible to lay on unbound bedding.

Do you think mortar pointing can last a reasonable lifespan on unbound laid flags?

[sy76uk]

The majority of the flags i've laid have been on sand.
I agree that it helps get the bed right.
I'd still lay council greys or cast concrete flags that have a minimal joint on an unbound bed as long as there's an edge restraint but the only I time I lay that type of paving now is on shed bases.

[WhatshouldIdo]

If in the contract it says 'wet lay slabs' but he then lays them on sand should he have told me before he made the change to avoid a breach of contract?

[sy76uk]

Your slabs needed to be laid on a mortar bed because they are jointed.

[WhatshouldIdo]

So if he didn't lay them on a mortar bed which I'm 90% certain he didn't then they've been laid incorrectly?

[sy76uk]

Yes, slabs that have been spaced for a mortar joint, tapered or not need to be laid on a rigid bed or the jointing will fail.

[WhatshouldIdo]

Which is exactly what has happened. I know the photos don't show the full picture so I'll need to take better ones when I get the chance but I'd say over 50% of the joins are cracked on the patio. Just need the right angle to show it.

Cheers for the advice.