Advice needed on new patio - Spot bedded?

[Pieman]

Hi All. My patio is around two months old now and at first I had no reason to suspect any issues. However a few weeks ago one of the large slabs suddenly sounded hollow and was able to move a mm or two but only down the lengths of the slab, not really at the corners. I then checked over the edges of the patio by removing the slate - all bar one small flag have gaps in the middle of their beds on the right side, the side closest the house is mainly gap free beds and the left hand side is solid with no gaps. I then look at the sort of staining on the lightest coloured flags where there appears to be some hybrid form of spot bedding - a solid frame and a handful of dollops in the middle? Is this exactly what has been done as I'm curious as to why? The contractor said and insists that full beds have been installed, but I know that isn't true due to gaps in their sides. The other coloured flags are hard to spot that anything is wrong and all others seem solid, although on some large flags you can just about see around six dollops in the centre. Any advice is greatly appreciated so that my facts are right.


screenshot on pc


adult image

[Pieman]

I should add that the flags look ok when wet and only dry in this state.

[r896neo]

The only way to know for sure is to lift a flag, preferably a large one and preferably somewhere in the centre. If it is spot bedded then challange the contractor and ask him to re-lay it on a full bed as i assume that is what was quoted for.

I imagine you will run into a barrage of excuses along the lines of 'that is a full bed in my book, the majority of them are full bedded' etc etc.

Its up to you at this stage what happens?

The solid edge and dabs in the middle technique is to make the pointing easier as that is the one big downfall with spot bedding cowboys, how to point into thin air...

This is full bedding in my book





and this is spot bedding at its worst on one i lifted and relaid last year

[Pieman]

Thanks for your reply. I am veering on the side of a full relay as I paid good money on the basis of a full bed and have it in writing. Is the process of lifting this all back up an easy task or does it risk damaging what's already there (even though that really isn't my problem!)? Will the stains merge into one colour once relaid on a full bed or will they be permanently marked?

[r896neo]

They will come up ok, may break a few here and there.

It's very hard to see in photos but is it actually staining or just moisture marks from uneven drying? i.e when the paving has been dry for a few days in a row are there any marks?

I'd guess its mainly the moisture issue and if so then relaying it will sort it.

There is a similar thread going here titled 'sandstone mortar moisture'

[Pieman]

Yes it seems to be worse once it's dried out. I can't see anything whilst wet but now they are bone dry the dollops of mortar on a lot of the pavers is really obvious.

Here's another link, check out the three flags in a row with the same issue. The one on the left I've filmed as you can get your hand and phone underneath.


image uploading site

[r896neo]

Link doesnt seem to work.

I mean though wait until its been dry for 4/5 days and once the bedding and stone are totally dry do the marks persist? I imagine they would go away which would mean relaying them will be fine. If however they persist it may actually be cement drawn up into the flag which may weather out eventually but not for a long time.

[Pieman]

Can you see the pictures I've attached? I've made them bigger now. We've had dry weather for a few weeks now and the patches if anything are worse and more prominent. The contractor said he left gaps in the bed to allow for drainage, but then wouldn't the hardcore be washed away?

[rxbren]

So it's gone from full bed to spot lay

[Pieman]

I don't even think it's that good! The lastest picture with the plant pot in the corner was where the patio started and that's been spotted as well. I think the method of a frame and a handful of dollops in the middle has been done throughout and now the marks are really obvious on lots of different stones not just the light coloured ones.

[r896neo]

Sorry for your woes but if the marks bother you enough then re-laying is probably the only solution.

Your going to need to lift one or two for proof and then confront him about it. It may be worth asking him for a few quid back instead of a lift and relay. This might suit him better especially at this time of year and its amazing how a few quid can make problems like this less noticable.

If its your home for the long term though the staining is not the only problem, spot bedding will shorten the life-span of the paved surface considerably.

If he's quoted in writing for full bed and then gone and done this its time for an uncomfortable chat.

[Pieman]

So we had a decent chat with the contractor yesterday and it seems like he has attempted a full bed by squashing the blobs in the middle down, with the intention that they spread into one mass. He said that it's his method of laying.

He also said that he purposely left gaps in the 'side walls' of the edge flags to allow for drainage, but I'm not convinced that by doing that, it would create issues with the sub base and it's an avenue for anything to get in, whether it be frost or critters.

However it looks like he took our points on board and has agreed to relay. Hopefully this will create an even colour on the flag face and increase our patio life. This may be me worrying, but can the flags have a hairline type fracture occur when being lifted and relayed that might worsen with a frost?

[lutonlagerlout]

I looked at 1 last night that was bedded just like yours 3 years ago pieman,the flags are starting to come loose and there are multiple insects and all sorts in the voids,the *pointing* was done by brushing sharp sand and cement into the joints and misting with a hose
told the guy ,total relay is the only option
he paid a lot and it is all for nothing
LLL

[sy76uk]

I'll be relaying a patio for a lovely old lady in the summer.
She had her garden professionally designed then had cowboys lay the paving.
It's not even spot bedded, it's all been laid on sharp sand. Even the rumbled blocks used for the border.
12k down the toilet. The job is diabolical which is a shame because the design is very nice.
The thing that gets my goat is that we have to compete with these low life robbing 2@'s on price.
The worst part is that I can't repair it all without damaging a good 2k's worth of plants so it's a case of relaying the sandstone.
Such a shame to see someone taking advantage of like that.

[lutonlagerlout]

and in their blissful ignorance they think that is the correct way to lay?
LLL